Before Sunset

[krickets]

So basically my feelings about the recent Vampire Diaries episodes can be summed up outside of a cut because nothing I feel right now is spoilery. Because I'm a delusional non-canon shipper.

Pretty much what you need to understand is that I am a gross person who ships everything in the universe that she shouldn't ship. Whatever you saw on your screens the past two weeks did not actually happen in my brain. What really happened (read: did not in any way happen) was this:

Jeremy/Matt! Caroline/Stefan! Klaus/Rebekah! Elena/Tyler! Stefan/Tyler! Klaus/Stefan! Elena/Jeremy! Jeremy/Tyler! Matt/Tyler! etc. (And I really do mean etc. - at this point I am just sparing you my crazy.)

I know.

I'm sick and I can't be helped.

You might as well leave me to it.

Comments

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

I would be grossed out if Jeremy, and Elena were actually brother, and sister, but since they're not really I think the ship would work. xD

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Well I mean, they're bio cousins, but... still! I'm clearly not right. The bother/sister thing is totally a THING of mine. (I did write Claire/Jack fic in the Lost fandom for YEARS. Yes, that was me.) And with the popularity of the Damon/Stefan in this fandom, I think it's pretty much par for the course.

The tender touches between them really does not help my unhealthy addiction.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

For my view, the relevant part of incest isn't the blood relation (which is way overhyped) so much as the relations of power and trust and influence, and those are there regardless.

(Nothing wrong with liking incest-themed fiction, just saying coz the cultural discourse around incest is really unhelpful for fighting incest as an especially pernicious form of sexual/psychic violence)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Power/trust issues are pretty common across the board no matter who you're shipping. So if you think of it that way, you can pretty much find a reason not to support any pairing, or perhaps more accurately, a reason to single out why that pairing may be problematic in a real-world non-fictitious setting. The big "I" word is something that I've used in fic repeatedly, personally. But in no way does any of that relate to, or translate to the real world. At the same time I do realize I don't live in a vacuum. But certainly the two are clearly and solidly separated in my own mind. In some of these instances there are balance issues, but for the most part I think it's an equal push and pull. At least, I try to write it that way.

My Elena/Jeremy/Tyler fic is probably (guessing) my most popular TVD fic on AO3. Now whether that has anything to do with the pairing or if it's just better than my other fics, I don't know. But obviously this particular pairing is, at bottom, alluring to a small number of fans of the show. For one reason or another.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

Um? I wasn't responding to your pairing them, I was responding to someone saying that it would be gross if they were blood related but it's fine otherwise. "The thing that is wrong with incest is blood relation" is actively unhelpful to survivors of IRL incest. You'll note I didn't respond about this to the post or to tellshannon. It would be rather hypocritical of me given as how I ship Rebekah/Klaus (even if not as hard as I ship Relena) and Candy Boy is one of my favorite anime.

And parents/older siblings have a kind of influence over you and who you are that is pretty much unique. There really isn't anything like it from someone you meet after you're 15 and isn't your 24/7 mentor/cult guru. It's a step down from compulsion in terms of power, but ten steps up in terms of betrayal of trust. The Sire bond is the only thing on the show comparable. (Do people ship Tyler/Klaus? God that would be a creepy ship. I'm not practiced with AO3 but the brief search I tried turned up only one fic, Klaus/Tyler Smallwood, who is not sire bound)

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

[has a totally perverse desire to write Tyler/Klaus fic now.]

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

It's a very quick syllogism to go:

"The thing that people think is wrong with incest is blood relation."
"Blood relation isn't wrong (we're not making babies, they're just uptight)."
"Therefore, what we're doing isn't wrong [but you should keep it a secret anyway because people will think you're gross]."

To an eleven year old kid, this is incredibly convincing.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I don't think that was clear in your first post. Your initial statement in my mind read: "Despite blood relations, the power/trust/influence issues in incest (implied: fic) are always there no matter what."

I get that your opinions on this are very layered and I have to admit it's hard for me to fully understand. But I think I see what you are getting at. Which is, the shame of calling it "gross" is disenfranchising to real victims who might be trying to speak out against incest abuse because of the stigma of being labeled and looked at "gross" even though they are themselves a victim.

Everybody's got their own reasons for liking or not liking stuff and really, they're usually just a gut reaction. Can't really be helped, you know? You can intellectually know that the truly "gross" part about incest is the potential for power abuse. But it doesn't really change the fact that siblings copulating and potentially procreating just doesn't seem right to most people, regardless of power/control. Still, it is good to point out that the abuse of trust is the real problem with this kind of abuse.

I've never seen any Klaus/Tyler fic. Though after the looks of betrayal exchanged in this week's episode, I can see people being inspired to write it.

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

I think it's general rule for people who've been sexually assaulted by a family member to frown upon incest of any kind a lot more than your average person would. But, I'm only speaking as one person, and not as a group so I could be wrong. However, to think someone who could be reading these things, and getting their rocks off is disgusting, and disturbing, especially making note of how many paedophiles do just that, along with other creepy people - and, I'm not just talking serial killers, but stalkers, etc.

And, the whole "I would think it was gross," was a bit of a snarky joke, which I think KC understood. It's just fiction she, and others are writing. Not real life. Not like they're out there making love to their cousins, brothers, or fathers. And, I don't think being okay with reading a fiction piece about someone having sex with their cousin is going to cure rape, incest, or anything along those lines which is morally reprehensible - to me. The only thing that will is figuring out what causes these things, and various ways to stop, or prevent them. But, that's just my thought.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

By the way, if you are still interested, I am still going to write some Elena/Jeremy over hiatus. Apparently I cannot be deterred.

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

Yay! [hug]

I'm definitely still interested. I've read all your fic, even if I don't say anything. In fact, it's made me consider writing some at a couple points in various fandoms. :") (YES, it's that good, and don't argue, or I'll... I don't know, but it's not going to be nice! So, yeah! Grr! Haha.)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Wha? *cheerleads* Do it!!!