Before Sunset

[krickets]

So basically my feelings about the recent Vampire Diaries episodes can be summed up outside of a cut because nothing I feel right now is spoilery. Because I'm a delusional non-canon shipper.

Pretty much what you need to understand is that I am a gross person who ships everything in the universe that she shouldn't ship. Whatever you saw on your screens the past two weeks did not actually happen in my brain. What really happened (read: did not in any way happen) was this:

Jeremy/Matt! Caroline/Stefan! Klaus/Rebekah! Elena/Tyler! Stefan/Tyler! Klaus/Stefan! Elena/Jeremy! Jeremy/Tyler! Matt/Tyler! etc. (And I really do mean etc. - at this point I am just sparing you my crazy.)

I know.

I'm sick and I can't be helped.

You might as well leave me to it.

Comments

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

In that case, you're watching a better show than the rest of us, and I'm jealous.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hahaha. You should be. It is fucking glorious from over here. (All kidding aside I have enjoyed these last couple of eps a lot! Even without my crazy shipping nonense!)

Spoilers ahoy!

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

I'm enjoying them too, I'm just annoyed by the androcentric, meaningless, 4th-wall-painting love triangle "choice" crap. With the exception of Klaus's "just between us girls" line, which was brilliant but I'm not even really sure why I like it so much. ...Stefan, especially, should know better, he used to be good at caring about what Elena wanted.

Elena's death being Alaric's weakness was pretty great, or it would be if they hadn't used the exact same plot device last season. IDK I actually still liked it, but really? ... It did answer the question of why he didn't immediately turn her for insurance against the Bonnie and the Salvatores (this should be a band name), which otherwise he should've wasted no time in doing. It was pretty sensible of Mama Original to make that his weakness, it was pretty smart for Elena to figure that out, and then the unintended consequence of her revelation was also great.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah the love triangle stuff is getting old but mostly because it's not being done in a way that could be considered organic AT ALL. Caroline's "The Bachelor" line pretty much sums it up. The whole idea of that show is so damn contrived and the idea that Elena's relationship with either Stefan or Damon should be anything like it is just insulting... but that is pretty much what they've pared it down to. Love triangles are not always poorly done. They can be done in a way that doesn't make you want to punch your TV. But what's been happening for several episodes is that the writers of this show are basically talking to the audience through the characters. Which I think is what you're getting at. It's so annoying. Especially for a show that has done so many things right. Why is this one central element so ridiculously bad? I don't get it!

I also had to side-eye the guys when immediately after Elena telling them she doesn't want to lose them they make a pact to leave town if she chooses the other brother. WHAT? Were you even listening to her, you dimwits? REALLY?

Bonnie and the Salvatores should definitely be a band name. In fact I might start it myself, haha.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

Love triangles are not always poorly done. They can be done in a way that doesn't make you want to punch your TV.

Haha true. They just...haven't been. There was a point when the Caroline/Matt/Tyler triangle was well done, even, and the love triangles on Buffy (except the ones involving Bangel, those got SO ANNOYING) didn't annoy me. But, then, there weren't so goddamn many of them. And then there's the bisexual love differential equation of Card Captor Sakura, which makes me overjoyed but is rarely particularly angsty.

But what's been happening for several episodes is that the writers of this show are basically talking to the audience through the characters. Which I think is what you're getting at. It's so annoying. Especially for a show that has done so many things right. Why is this one central element so ridiculously bad? I don't get it!

UGH YES. That's a big part of what I'm finding annoying. But just as much as that--or, partially, as a consequence of that--it's your other comment that's really getting to me:

I also had to side-eye the guys when immediately after Elena telling them she doesn't want to lose them they make a pact to leave town if she chooses the other brother. WHAT? Were you even listening to her, you dimwits? REALLY?

EXACTLY. No one's asking what she wants for her life and whether she could get that with one, both, or neither; no one's asking about what's important to her, or what her needs would be, etc. And on that rare occasion when *she* finally asks those questions, she's promptly ignored. ARGH. The triangle is only being examined through the lens of how it affects the two male characters, and not how it affects Elena.

...Also, just...even when they're not being passive aggressive about it Damon and Stefan are being seriously passive aggressive. It's par for the course for Damon, but I'd've expected better from Stefan.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I feel like at this point I can barely even take it seriously. But yeah. They're handling it terribly in all manner of ways.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

I do, in fact, want Stelena back, but not in a form that would or could actually happen at this point. (Basically, pre-S3 Stelena)

The more I think about it, though, the more I'm starting to think this whole shtick is smoke and mirrors for setting up Elena/Matt, which might have some of that wholesome, positive relationship stuff. Regardless I'm sick of this, make it stop.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I am really hoping Elena/Matt happens. I am pretty much in favor of any advancements that involve Matt not dying.

[ellensmithee.livejournal.com]

Klaus/Stefan wasn't in your head! It's probably the most consistent romance on that show right now.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Well I mean, subtextually. (I think I just made up a word cause Chrome is telling me it's not one.) But yes, I agree.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

Wiktionary says it's a word. :P

And, yeah, I was quite taken with his "sure, come with us" offer. That love triangle would be so much more fun...

(oh man I am imagining the three of them road-tripping across country as a new show concept and it would make me so happy)

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

Merriam Webster says it's a word, too!

[crickets.livejournal.com]

You guys with your mad dictionary skillz. ♥! Clearly I could not be bothered, haha.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh I want that so bad. STOP. Hahaha.

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

I would be grossed out if Jeremy, and Elena were actually brother, and sister, but since they're not really I think the ship would work. xD

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Well I mean, they're bio cousins, but... still! I'm clearly not right. The bother/sister thing is totally a THING of mine. (I did write Claire/Jack fic in the Lost fandom for YEARS. Yes, that was me.) And with the popularity of the Damon/Stefan in this fandom, I think it's pretty much par for the course.

The tender touches between them really does not help my unhealthy addiction.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

For my view, the relevant part of incest isn't the blood relation (which is way overhyped) so much as the relations of power and trust and influence, and those are there regardless.

(Nothing wrong with liking incest-themed fiction, just saying coz the cultural discourse around incest is really unhelpful for fighting incest as an especially pernicious form of sexual/psychic violence)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Power/trust issues are pretty common across the board no matter who you're shipping. So if you think of it that way, you can pretty much find a reason not to support any pairing, or perhaps more accurately, a reason to single out why that pairing may be problematic in a real-world non-fictitious setting. The big "I" word is something that I've used in fic repeatedly, personally. But in no way does any of that relate to, or translate to the real world. At the same time I do realize I don't live in a vacuum. But certainly the two are clearly and solidly separated in my own mind. In some of these instances there are balance issues, but for the most part I think it's an equal push and pull. At least, I try to write it that way.

My Elena/Jeremy/Tyler fic is probably (guessing) my most popular TVD fic on AO3. Now whether that has anything to do with the pairing or if it's just better than my other fics, I don't know. But obviously this particular pairing is, at bottom, alluring to a small number of fans of the show. For one reason or another.

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

Um? I wasn't responding to your pairing them, I was responding to someone saying that it would be gross if they were blood related but it's fine otherwise. "The thing that is wrong with incest is blood relation" is actively unhelpful to survivors of IRL incest. You'll note I didn't respond about this to the post or to tellshannon. It would be rather hypocritical of me given as how I ship Rebekah/Klaus (even if not as hard as I ship Relena) and Candy Boy is one of my favorite anime.

And parents/older siblings have a kind of influence over you and who you are that is pretty much unique. There really isn't anything like it from someone you meet after you're 15 and isn't your 24/7 mentor/cult guru. It's a step down from compulsion in terms of power, but ten steps up in terms of betrayal of trust. The Sire bond is the only thing on the show comparable. (Do people ship Tyler/Klaus? God that would be a creepy ship. I'm not practiced with AO3 but the brief search I tried turned up only one fic, Klaus/Tyler Smallwood, who is not sire bound)

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

[has a totally perverse desire to write Tyler/Klaus fic now.]

[rabiya-al-basri.livejournal.com]

It's a very quick syllogism to go:

"The thing that people think is wrong with incest is blood relation."
"Blood relation isn't wrong (we're not making babies, they're just uptight)."
"Therefore, what we're doing isn't wrong [but you should keep it a secret anyway because people will think you're gross]."

To an eleven year old kid, this is incredibly convincing.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I don't think that was clear in your first post. Your initial statement in my mind read: "Despite blood relations, the power/trust/influence issues in incest (implied: fic) are always there no matter what."

I get that your opinions on this are very layered and I have to admit it's hard for me to fully understand. But I think I see what you are getting at. Which is, the shame of calling it "gross" is disenfranchising to real victims who might be trying to speak out against incest abuse because of the stigma of being labeled and looked at "gross" even though they are themselves a victim.

Everybody's got their own reasons for liking or not liking stuff and really, they're usually just a gut reaction. Can't really be helped, you know? You can intellectually know that the truly "gross" part about incest is the potential for power abuse. But it doesn't really change the fact that siblings copulating and potentially procreating just doesn't seem right to most people, regardless of power/control. Still, it is good to point out that the abuse of trust is the real problem with this kind of abuse.

I've never seen any Klaus/Tyler fic. Though after the looks of betrayal exchanged in this week's episode, I can see people being inspired to write it.

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

I think it's general rule for people who've been sexually assaulted by a family member to frown upon incest of any kind a lot more than your average person would. But, I'm only speaking as one person, and not as a group so I could be wrong. However, to think someone who could be reading these things, and getting their rocks off is disgusting, and disturbing, especially making note of how many paedophiles do just that, along with other creepy people - and, I'm not just talking serial killers, but stalkers, etc.

And, the whole "I would think it was gross," was a bit of a snarky joke, which I think KC understood. It's just fiction she, and others are writing. Not real life. Not like they're out there making love to their cousins, brothers, or fathers. And, I don't think being okay with reading a fiction piece about someone having sex with their cousin is going to cure rape, incest, or anything along those lines which is morally reprehensible - to me. The only thing that will is figuring out what causes these things, and various ways to stop, or prevent them. But, that's just my thought.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

By the way, if you are still interested, I am still going to write some Elena/Jeremy over hiatus. Apparently I cannot be deterred.

[geekiest.livejournal.com]

Yay! [hug]

I'm definitely still interested. I've read all your fic, even if I don't say anything. In fact, it's made me consider writing some at a couple points in various fandoms. :") (YES, it's that good, and don't argue, or I'll... I don't know, but it's not going to be nice! So, yeah! Grr! Haha.)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Wha? *cheerleads* Do it!!!

[haldoor.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Never happens the way I want it either, and this pretty much applies to 90% of shows I watch. (I'm behind on TVD though... Thingy just shot Alaric where I am... Yes, I am that good with names!)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Oh no! I actually really enjoyed the last few eps. Even without all my crazy crack-shipping. (I basically just want everyone to make out with everyone else. Is that so wrong?)


ETA: Oh! MEREDITH. It took me way too long to figure out who "thingy" was. She's pretty. (*is shallow*)

[haldoor.livejournal.com]

Well, that's good! I usually enjoy it too, but yeah, never quite the way I want it. (I want pretty much the same, only it usually only includes m/m; at least you're a little more balanced, and therefore somewhat likely to get a chance when you include M/F!!!)

Sorry! I am way bad with female characters especially. She is pretty, but I'm basically too involved in the Damon/Alaric to see any woman who's near Alaric properly

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's true. Must be difficult for people who rarely ship het. I am kind of a wacky balance of both M/M and M/F. 50/50 split in terms of "ships I'm interested in." Though I am more likely to write M/F or M/M/F than M/M. (How did this become the writer's corner? I don't know.)

Haha, no worries. You know the actress who plays her is actually Paul's wife in real life? They're very cute together.

The noisy confusing interview is worth it for the moment that starts at 1:15 when she whispers in his ear.

[haldoor.livejournal.com]

I love that this became the writer's corner! Ha! We do quite differently with fic, in all honesty, but I love that we love some of the same shows!

They are cute together and despite the noise, that was fun. Thanks for sharing! ;-)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Agreed!

Aren't they though? *smishes them*

[tellshannon815.livejournal.com]

While it's unusual for me to focus on specific pairings, TVD is one show where I will seriously ship just about anyone and in fact is the only show ever to have got me liking an incestuous pairing (Klaus/Rebekah).

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Well we know I crossed that line a long time ago, haha.

Yeah, it's like ship soup all over this show. I can't stop myself. (I don't want to!)