ohhhhhhhhhhhh, lost.

[krickets]

MALE death count, not comprehensive:
Main: Boone, Karl, Charlie, Tom, Michael, Eko (6)
Smaller roles: Goodwin, Ethan, Mikhail, Keamy, Edward (the marshall), Anthony Cooper, Dr. Artzt, Paulo, Christian, Pickett (10)
Alive (in the current timeline): Jack, Sawyer, Daniel, Locke, Ben, Miles, Aaron, Desmond, Sayid, Richard, Bernard, Charles Widmore, Hurley, Walt, Frank (15)
Unknown/Sidelined: Jin (1)

FEMALE death count, not comprehensive:
Main: Libby, Shannon, Ana-Lucia, Alex, Danielle (5)
Smaller roles: Nadia, Susan (Walt's Mom), Colleen, Nikki, Greta, Bonnie, Naomi (7)
Alive (in the current timeline): Kate, Sun, Rose, Penny, Juliet (5)
Unknown/Sidelined: Claire*, Charlotte** (2)

*Based on casting spoilers about Emilie not returning to the show next season and her story at the end of s4.
**Based on casting spoilers about Rebecca not being billed as a regular, as well as promo spots of her character seemingly dead.


So what?
Now I have to admit that the tally of the "dead" is based on my shaky memory at best. I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting and probably countless unnamed/insignificant guest-spots that I haven't taken into account. (And I don't think we really should.) And personally, I'm not all too concerned with what's already happened. But I am concerned with what we're left with.

The thing I'm actually annoyed about is these two figures:
Females Living (in the current timeline): Kate, Sun, Rose, Penny, Juliet (5)
Males Living (in the current timeline): Jack, Sawyer, Daniel, Locke, Ben, Miles, Aaron, Desmond, Sayid, Richard, Bernard, Charles Widmore, Hurley, Walt, Frank (15)

I'd guess that out of those fifteen men, at least 9 of them are "regulars." (And characters like Aaron & Richard may be around a lot next season, that remains to be seen.) Out of those five women, only 3 of them are currently regulars.

I happen to really like both Claire and Charlotte. Everybody knows about my disdain for Juliet. And Rose gets like 2 lines per season. So far we haven't truly seen that much of Penny, though her character is integral to the story and now that she's reunited with Desmond, we would hopefully see more of her, but based on promos, I'm guessing we won't. Woo hoo, for Kate and Sun sticking around. But seriously? Seriously?

I do take issue with the clear imbalance here, though not as much as I probably should. More than anything I take issue with them killing off characters with a lot of potential before they have a chance to explore them. The first time this happened, the first time it really pissed me off, was when Charlie killed Ethan. I'm still not quite over that.

My favorite of the "new characters" that weren't in the original cast were Charlotte, Alex, Daniel, & Miles (a little bit). So why do the dudes get to stay and the chicks gotta go? I know it's an unpopular opinion but I really think Charlotte had a lot of potential. Why stir up the whole going-back-to-her-birthplace crap if you're just going to kill her off? Ugh, LOST. You're lucky we have fanfic or I would so break up with you! (Maybe.)

Comments

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Have you seen the new promo from abc? It's at darkufo. She sure looks dead dead dead. As in dead. Maybe she's just taking a nice long nap. I would love nothing more than her character to live. But I'm also pissed that she's not going to be on that much. Not as much as Daniel and Miles are according to their contracts and stuff.

[elliotsmelliot.livejournal.com]

This is something that annoys me incredibly too and I have ranted about before in my journal. In addition to the uneven deaths and cast lists which you have mentioned, I think the male characters are generally more developed, have stories beyond being a love interest/parent, and are more likely to be considered "special" to the island.

I'm also totally with you on how silly it is to introduce characters only to kill them off before their story is told. For me Rousseau is the ultimate example of this. Her story and Alex’s were ended so abruptly, just to further Ben’s story. But as you said, the complete marginalization of Claire and the now the sidelining of Charlotte are also good examples of this. (Plus what about Libby?) Even if those two return with some big bang in the last season, making them disappear for a while suggest they are more interesting gone, then they are present.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

You're right they really are more developed. At least for the most part. Kate, Sun, and Juliet have gotten a lot of development though, much more than any of the other female characters, including Claire. A lot more of the male characters have been developed by comparison.

And wow I completely agree when you say that making them go away and then come back suggesting that they're way more interesting when they're not around than when they are. That's so what it is. It reminds me of soap operas when the rich parents send their kids off to boarding school for a few years, so the writers can get them out of the way and deal with the real stories.

Blech.

And the wasted potential thing is so frustrating. But Lost does that with everything, its plot-lines and its characters.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

My feelings about Claire are pretty well-known, and I'm convinced that American TV must have something against Emilie because that's the only reason I can think of for consistently treating an actor of her calibre so poorly. (At least LOST didn't feel the need to demonize her, write her out in a completely out-of-character fashion, and then bring her back a season later just to kill her off, but that's small comfort when you're still taking my weekly Emilie fix away.)


Anyway. More to the point. I've had this conversation before, a few times, often with someone who tries to argue with me that the boys get killed off with the same frequency as the girls. It's not the number of male v. female deaths that's the problem -- it's the fact that the pool of female characters is so much smaller than that of male characters to begin with, and that the characters are, as you say, killed off often far before they have a chance to explore their full potential. They were going in really interesting directions with Shannon, for example, and then they killed her for...for what reason, exactly? Shock value? It certainly didn't seem to impact the overall story.

I'm quite fond of Charlotte and hope that she's not dead. I desperately hope Penny gets more of a frontlined storyline this season, but the promos don't make me all that hopeful. I love a lot, if not most, of the new characters -- which is lucky, given how they keep killing off my favorites from the original cast -- but seriously, if you keep killing everybody off to try to make it the Jack-Kate-and-Sawyer show...well, I'm not happy, let's put it that way.

Oh, LOST. I wish I knew how to quit watching shows that are breaking my heart...and not for good reasons.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Right? Emilie can be really great when given the right material. OR, you know... just material. Ugh, Lost, you silly-headed dum dum!

and then they killed her for...for what reason, exactly? Shock value? It certainly didn't seem to impact the overall story. → Right? It so didn't impact the story at all. It gave Ana-Lucia a little bit of depth and then they killed her off too. Lame.

Hehe, you just brokebacked Lost, "I wish I knew how to quit you." Love it.

[quiet-rebel.livejournal.com]

You have Eko listed twice in main and smaller male characters.

Man, remember when Boone died and it was epic? Now people dying on Lost is like normal.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Fixed!

Yeah! I do! They've definitely abused their power. Back then I liked to argue that someone had to die in order to make all that they were going through real. Real consequences. But the way he died annoyed me and actually cemented my disdain for Locke.

"Hi, I'm Locke and I believe the island is sending me the truth through my dreams.... except that part where you're all bloody and dead-ish, I'm pretty sure that was the squid I ate for dinner."

[theladyscribe]

*sigh* This is part of the reason why I stopped watching Lost (the other part is because I kept forgetting to watch it when it was on, but that is probably related to this). Well, and also because they kept killing off my favorite characters (Eko, Shannon, Rousseau, Alex...), and I couldn't take it anymore. All of their deaths seemed so superfluous, and if you're going to do things like that, there'd better be a damn good reason.

That is one thing SPN tends to have that Lost does not: when people die, there's a reason for it, whether they've sold their soul or a ghost kills them out of revenge or a demon kills them to stir up trouble. The few times they haven't held to that, it's fallen flat, and Kripke is generally willing to admit it (why hello there, Croatoan).

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah it's very much in service of... I dunno convenience? Backpeddling in some cases maybe? They're just gone. For no reason. Argh.


And I'll have to disagree with you about SPN just because my critical eye on that show is never far. Just because a demon/something kills them doesn't always make their deaths meaningful. It's not as if people are going to get hit by a car on the show... it's Supernatural - of course every death will be in some way supernatural related.

I can think of a lot of pointless deaths. Ash, Andy, Henrickson, Ava (sure she went evil.... so they could kill her), not to mention the unexplained disappearance of Ellen and Jo, the lie about "killing off" Ruby because they couldn't afford another regular/recurring. Etc. etc. I also never liked Mary and Jessica's roles and the women set up to be pretty and then die so the men could have a big epic mission in their awesome car. (And ret-conning it four seasons later don't count.) Yeah no... SPN fails just as bad/worse than Lost on pointless deaths. That's probably partially due to the nature of the thing itself but it's also partially due to Kripke being a bit/lot fickle coupled with the whole "this is a show about men, American men, in jeans with guns and a hot car who kill things" aspect of it.

Wow went on a bit of a rant there, sorry.

[theladyscribe]

I had not thought of it like that, but you are right. I guess it bothers me less on SPN because it's *always* been like that from the very beginning. I mean, somebody (important) dies in the first five minutes, so everyone is automatically at risk. And it is/was always going to have a high body count (both of very minor and some major characters) due to the nature of the show.

Unlike in Lost, where there is mass destruction in the pilot episode, but no one (important) actually dies until the end of the first season, which should have implied that there wasn't going to be a massive body count.

I also guess that I feel like the deaths of the characters on Supernatural generally have a purpose - Mary and Jess are the catalysts, and while I didn't really like that they killed off Ash, Andy, Ava, and Henricksen, I can accept their deaths because a) they all upped the desperation of the boys and b) the boys actual suffer when people die. Perhaps it's because of the ensemble cast, but I never quite feel that the people of Lost suffer enough when other characters die, whereas Supernatural does make an attempt to show the consequences of people's deaths, especially when the boys are involved (Heart would be the prime example of this).

The one truly wasted character on Supernatural, though, was Bela. But I'm not going to go there because it will just make me angry.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yes! I was going to mention her but I never actually saw the episode where she died so I couldn't say much about it.

But yes, it's true they are very different kinds of shows and death is more expected with SPN than with Lost if you simply took the basic premise (barring the plane crash, obviously.)

[theladyscribe]

I also wonder whether the male/female ratio of deaths (and survivors) on SPN would correlate with that of Lost. I think someone did a body count at one point, and the death rates were pretty even, but there were actually more female survivors. Perhaps I have something to do on New Year's Eve after all...

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I don't know it seems to be pretty even here actually if we're talking major characters. Have no idea what it'd be for spn. And... hahaha, tallying that up would be a task-and-a-half. Whoa. Talk about your all-nighter. LOL. (Or more.)

[alissabobissa.livejournal.com]

Love the tallies. While we were recently rewatching the series after Thanksgiving, spinkkitty started keeping a death list too. Crazy amounts of dead people on that show. We also started picking out the no-lines background people and naming them. Bandana Lady and BeardFace Guy are our favorites (or were as BL was killed in the raid on New Otherton and BFG was on the zodiac with Faraday when last we saw him so who knows what happened to them).

I also find the new people awesome and am looking forward to getting more of their stories. I just really really like this show again. :)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, that's so awesome that you've named the background people and keep up with where they are. Bandanna lady, wow. Could you imagine showing up to work every day looking like crap in the same bandanna? That must suck. (Well, it might also be totally awesome.) I am really pulling for BFG now. Hahaha.

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

LOL, Lost is a sausage party.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Haha, it totally is!

*hands you award for best comment*

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

I'm here to lighten your comment threads. :)

It's going above my fireplace!

[mistojen.livejournal.com]

I noticed the severely disproportionate casting when I was writing SurReality TV over at LVI actually...

To be honest...I think I've been bitching about ALL of your points for enough years that you'd rather not hear me go on with it again, but yes.

This.

Congratulations, Darlton, your misogyny's showing! :P

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah I think I may remember you having issues with that.

Well it's also.. just.. annoying storytelling, almost more than misogyny. Though I know that's a part of it. It's not as though they spare the men though, but there happens to be more of them... a fucking lot more of them.

[mistojen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well I mean, the annoying storytelling, I think in this case, almost goes hand in hand with the misogynistic marginalization of the few females they had to begin with, you know what I mean? Otherwise I'd not have brought that up for the millionth time haha I'm sure everyone's sick of hearing me complain about it ;)

I'm just disappointed beyond further explanation because I used to love the "getting to know the backstory of the characters" bit...but now they concentrate on the main three and most times, when they have a flashback (or forward, wtf) of one of the characters left that I actually give a damn about, usually it's a cop out because the episode ends in their death. Weak at best, failtastic storytelling at worst, yeah?

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, well IMO there's more about Ben now than anyone. Which, bugs me to NO END. Especially since apparently when he came on it was supposed to be for a couple eps but they liked him so much they made a role for him. And now he's like the most important character on the show, the answer and the question to everything Lost. BEN. ARGH.

[slybrunette.livejournal.com]

I hate the imbalance, always have. But it's...Lost I guess. Hadn't heard about Charlotte -- can't say as though I'm all that surprised.

This, honey, is why we write fic. Exactly why.

Also, I am NEVER woo-hooing Kate sticking around. Never again.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Haha hey at least she's still there. I mean I don't hate Kate as much as most seem to. But seriously, if she weren't there... yeah.

[falafel-musings.livejournal.com]

Phew! Reading stuff like this makes me relieved I don't watch Lost any more. I quit watching after Charlie died because they took away my everyman hero just when he was becoming a dynamic character. But also because they have reduced the whole storyline to this feeble piece of clockwork; the fate machine. Now it's just the show where everyone must do what destiny tells them to do because Darlton can no longer think of a logical natural progression for their storyline.

Moving onto BSG fandom definitely makes me aware of how poor the female roles are in Lost. It's not just the imbalance of boys Vs girls that bugs me. It's the fact that female Lost characters have only two functions, a) being the romantic intest of male characters b) roles that center around motherhood. Claire is a classic example; she loses her baby, she loses her romance with Charlie so her character can just disappear now. Claire has one other storyline of being Jack's sister, but apparantly that revelation is only important in how it impacts on our male hero. Claire need not be onscreen. Kate and Sun's O6 stories have focused on motherhood, Juliet fuctions as a fertility doctor, the new promo reveals that even Penny is being reduced to a baby maker. If Charlotte can avoid getting knocked up you're right that she could have potential. But I agree that Charlotte is probably dying soon. Or she's been sidelined because they won't give her regular status.

I've also noticed that when Lost men die - Boone, Eko, Charlie, Michael - there is usually some sort of heroic or mystical significance to their deaths. Women - uniformly - die as victims. Usually gunshot victims. I think Penny is the only female character they have allowed (for plot purposes) to have a heroic function, as a rescuer. And in S5 even Penny is being reduced to a love interest/mother/victim role. I fully expect Penny to die next series. I can't watch.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I'm shocked to find out how many of my flisters don't actually watch this show anymore. You too? Heheh.

ow it's just the show where everyone must do what destiny tells them to do because Darlton can no longer think of a logical natural progression for their storyline.

Exactly. I couldn't have put it better. Argh. LOL (I'm still watching, and every year I get excited for it but YEAH, frustrating!)

Wow, BSG owns everyone when it comes to this. Women with real roles. Of course any het relationships existing at all - women being in service of the men, hardy har - tends to get the hard-core feminists to disagree but I think there's a clear winner here and it ain't LOST.

Yeah my reservations about Charlotte are the same. And Juliet, while I don't like her, was one of the more "purposeful" female stories (not just a girlfriend/wife/mother) until the whole... Ben is in love with her and Jack has to protect her and blah blah blah OMGSHUTUP-cakes. Yeah.

And yes, PENNY. God I wish she'd take a bigger role next season but with the baby-factory happening and Desmond clearly leaving her to run off and marry the island or something, that probably won't happen. I actually really like the actress, so it'd be nice to see her fulfill her hero role. But yeah, doubtful.

[falafel-musings.livejournal.com]

Well I've stopped caring about what "the answers" to Lost may be. I doubt any answers would justify all the death, doom and disappointment. The main storylines are the endless J/K/S love triangle and Locke & Ben's island/destiny games. I just don't care about any of those plotlines or people. My favourite characters have all been killed off or messed up. It's just not fun anymore.

Yeah, I never warmed to Juliet either. Mostly I felt like the 'Should we trust Juliet?' story of S3 was never resolved. Juliet never answered the question of why the Others were terrorising the Lostees, she never told Claire she had some sort of death chip in her. Plus I hated how Juliet was introduced in the S3 mini as - essentially - a prostitute for Jack's desires.

Penny was my favourite female character, just based on my fondness for Sonya and the potential of the character. But yeah, I think she's toast in S5.

Um, BSG has a lot of het ships (and I could rant all day about the lame handling of its few gay ships), but the women are never solely defined by their ships. The leading women of Roslin, Kara and Six are far from being soppily romantic and they certainly aren't maternal. Athena is the only main BSG girl with a baby story (even then Grace also gets to play the baby-hating Boomer) and I don't mind that story at all because Athena shares her parental arc with Helo.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah I agree completely, Juliet's 'should we trust her' story was never really fully realized. It was just... really poorly done. And sadly I think one of the secondary reasons it's hard for me with that character is because I find Elizabeth's acting incredibly cold, even when she's supposed to be angry or sad or happy... she just comes across as very flat to me. Extremely. On the other hand, I find her positively delightful in interviews. STRANGE.

[beerbad.livejournal.com]

Just one more reason I'm grateful that I finally kicked this bitch to the curb...!

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I am so weak! LOL.

[siluria]

LOST. You're lucky we have fanfic or I would so break up with you! (Maybe.)

LOL - if I could break up with Lost I would, but I just can't not watch in case something actually gets answered! :)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hehe, seriously. That's the main reason why I keep up with the show, so I can keep up with fic. (Not that I've been particularly good at reading this past year.)

[siluria]

I don't think many people have been particularly good either at reading or writing - I know I haven't. I'm not sure what that says to be honest!

[pauly26.livejournal.com]

Lost needs more females in the main cast but at least they've got an ethnic split we can be thankful for that. I do believe there is going to be a newcomer this season the girl who was in Rome Zuliekha Robinson I think I spelt that right.

I love Juliet sad you can't bear her. I think they really tried to develop her character in season 3 and she had a deep relation to the island which meant her character resonated more. I hope they go down this path with Charlotte too no killing off.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

That's true, not everyone on this show is white as the driven snow which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of shows!

[snookscribbles.livejournal.com]

Oh great, Charlie dies so they get rid of Claire?

*disgusted*

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah, me too.