(no subject)

[krickets]

Am I the only one who can see the male "actives" in Dollhouse? Alpha? Dead naked shower guy, what's-his-face-who's-name-I-can't-remember-if-that's-even-his-real-name, random dudes walking around and crawling into their hole in the floor just like the females?

Is it like selective gender blindness?

Comments

[crickets.livejournal.com]

There seems to have been -- honestly it's just little comments I see here and there, or completely dismissing the show (and Joss) for that reason, etc. -- it feels like a lot of fans feel this way.

I guess my theory about it is, Joss has made it a point many times to tell women's stories. Women are humans and all humans suffer. (And most of us don't kick ass and take names afterward.) So to not show their suffering would be disingenuous and false and BORING. I can't care about characters who aren't treated like real people, even in the high-fantasy worlds that Joss usually deals in.

If it's entirely arbitrary, has no meaning, or if the show portrays an overwhelming bias against women, if the female characters aren't treated like people or like they're worthless, or are treated like scenery/props, etc. then I am fully on board with the pointing and the spitting. But I don't think this is one of those cases -- at least not yet.

There's only been three episodes. I'm not gonna shake it down just yet. Sometimes I guess people just see what they want to see.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

Yes, they do. People love being pissed off and self-righteous. THEY LOVE IT.

I do think he's going somewhere with it. Somewhere that he's only just starting to get to. The small signals of Echo's increasing self-awareness are clear signs of that.

But for some people it's just all too yucky, and I can dig that. In fact the show is testing the boundaries of my own dub-con squick. I'm going to persevere because I have faith in Joss as a masterful storyteller. If it gets too yucky for me I guess I'll jump ship, but I can't see the yuck factor extending too far beyond where it already is.

I guess my theory about it is, Joss has made it a point many times to tell women's stories. Women are humans and all humans suffer. (And most of us don't kick ass and take names afterward.) So to not show their suffering would be disingenuous and false and BORING.

I agree. This show hasn't even gone nearly as far as to show the degradation and exploitation of human trafficking that goes on in the real world, and as I understand it targets women far more than men. I think it's sad that people shoot the messenger, just because it's fiction. RDM is always talking about 'holding up a mirror' to real life, showing the world as it is through the allegory of fantasy. Viewed in that context, Dollhouse is fluffy brain candy compared to the suffering it could be showing.

Aaaargh this does sound a little like rationalisation. I do find the show very, very creepy. And I don't think I'll just automatically forgive all when it comes to Saint Joss. But I think people are too quick to dismiss, y'know? Take it on face value, rather than looking closely at what is really going on.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Dude, I completely agree about shooting the messenger. The RDM thing about holding a mirror up to society is so spot on. I've been saying, "what would a show look like that omitted all female suffering?" (Or human suffering at all.) Because that's just not reality. It's not relevant and it's not interesting to me at all. And you're so right → Dollhouse is fluffy brain candy compared to the suffering it could be showing. ← I couldn't agree more.

You know I totally understand if the entire concept squicks a person. Just the idea of an organization that does this to people, is completely awful -- I agree with Paul and you, what the Dollhouse does is wrong, period -- and there are male actives so the women are not alone in that.

But the issue I suppose is that the show has a female lead -- so we're seeing it mostly from the female experience. I'm curious as to how people would be reacting to this show if it was a male lead.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

I'm curious as to how people would be reacting to this show if it was a male lead.

Yes, I'm curious about that too. I suspect that no one would watch it. I'm really not sure what that says about us as a society. :-/

Do you suppose that people really are thick enough to see making a show like this as actually endorsing a place like the Dollhouse? I thought it was making it perfectly clear that the ultimate point of it is that it's EVOL AND WRONG. I will be very, very surprised if the people in power are not brought to sticky, messy justice eventually.

Though this brings up the issue of whether the concept can be sustained beyond one season? I'm not convinced it can.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

No I don't honestly think so.

Maybe the issue is just that it's shown at all and the way it's shown. Women are "marginalized" and "objectified" and "victimized" --- all words used as a way to feminize their suffering I suppose. I do think women are treated differently in this (and other) media when it comes to that sort of thing -- not completely, not always -- but I don't necessarily believe it's always as bad as it's made out to be. And it feels that no matter what people do it's always wrong. There should be a handbook.

The message can be "this is very very very bad and wrong." But many don't care about the message -- just the means of getting there.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

There should be a handbook.

LOL Could you imagine the fights over who got to write it and what it would say?? I think academic feminists would actually start putting out contracts on each other. /o\

This conversation has reinforced my resolve to give the show a chance and see where it goes. Let's just hope it doesn't get dramatically grosser and harder to actually watch?