(no subject)

[krickets]

Am I the only one who can see the male "actives" in Dollhouse? Alpha? Dead naked shower guy, what's-his-face-who's-name-I-can't-remember-if-that's-even-his-real-name, random dudes walking around and crawling into their hole in the floor just like the females?

Is it like selective gender blindness?

Comments

[bananainpyjamas.livejournal.com]

Is it like selective gender blindness?

Something like that.

I hear you. After reading the LJ response to the pilot I thought I had imagined the male actives.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Thank god, I'm not the only one.

[turquoisetumult.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this statement? Do mean that the show is ignoring the fact that male actives actually exist? Because with Alpha and Vincent, they're obviously not.

Please clarify/elaborate. :)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think she show's ignoring it at all. (And thank you for his name!) I think many people watching the show are ignoring it for the convenience of labeling the entire outfit sexist.

(I should probably have a dollhouse icon, no?)

[turquoisetumult.livejournal.com]

Ah, you mean like super!sexy chicks doing one's every desire? Gotcha. Well, there's obviously a big part of the show because Eliza Duskhu is the star rather than a male lead, but I definitely agree that that's definitely not what it's all about (especially in the pilot where we she Echo as a social activist rather than a bimbo of some sort. :D)

Yes, you should! :D

[crickets.livejournal.com]

If it was a male lead people would complain they weren't telling it from a female perspective. (Can Echo technically have perspective, at this point? LOL)

[quiet-rebel.livejournal.com]

I thought his name was Victor?

[turquoisetumult.livejournal.com]

Eep, is it? Yep, it is!

I'm sorry, KC and quiet_rebel. But at least I was close, no? :D

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, it's okay. Easy mistake! You were close!

Victor is fun to say.

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I thought there was something wrong with my own vision. I see male actives, so why doesn't anyone else?

[crickets.livejournal.com]

They're not as pretty? They watch with one eye open? They want to make Helo Paul cry?

[kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com]

It's selective reading because it validates certain arguements.

Everything makes Helo want to cry. That's what makes him Helo. :)

[crickets.livejournal.com]

He's sensitive. What can ya do?

[obsessive24.livejournal.com]

Amen, yes.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

Gah.

[snookscribbles.livejournal.com]

Nope, not the only one at all.

Must be - and isn't that intriguing. *nodnod*

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Intriguing, indeed!

[bradcpu.livejournal.com]

Please tell me you're coming to VVC this year.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hah. I wish. Sadly not. Saving up for an eventual move. (Plus there's the whole thing where I haven't vidded in a year... haha.)

I'm crossing my fingers for 2010.

I'll be a non-attending member this year though! Gotta have those DVDs!

[buffyann.livejournal.com]

thank you.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

And thank you, too!

[gigglemonster.livejournal.com]

Seriously dude.
Ya know *sigh* I guess I just don't get all the feminist stuff most of the time.
I mean, like you said, I'll gladly jump on board if it's obviously there because yeah it's not cool
But..most of the time I just do NOT see it or agree. It seems wayyy over exaggerated to me *shrugs*

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I get that it exists in shows and I see it a lot more these days. (Now that I'm paying attention.) But it just feels a bit extreme at times. This is definitely one of those times.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

Yep, I totally see them. I suspect they are also hired out as unwitting whores, just like the ladies.

So I guess that while I've been largely offline, there has been a bit of a feminist backlash against the show? Mkay. I guess I'm not surprised, but yeah, I certainly saw boywhores.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

There seems to have been -- honestly it's just little comments I see here and there, or completely dismissing the show (and Joss) for that reason, etc. -- it feels like a lot of fans feel this way.

I guess my theory about it is, Joss has made it a point many times to tell women's stories. Women are humans and all humans suffer. (And most of us don't kick ass and take names afterward.) So to not show their suffering would be disingenuous and false and BORING. I can't care about characters who aren't treated like real people, even in the high-fantasy worlds that Joss usually deals in.

If it's entirely arbitrary, has no meaning, or if the show portrays an overwhelming bias against women, if the female characters aren't treated like people or like they're worthless, or are treated like scenery/props, etc. then I am fully on board with the pointing and the spitting. But I don't think this is one of those cases -- at least not yet.

There's only been three episodes. I'm not gonna shake it down just yet. Sometimes I guess people just see what they want to see.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

Yes, they do. People love being pissed off and self-righteous. THEY LOVE IT.

I do think he's going somewhere with it. Somewhere that he's only just starting to get to. The small signals of Echo's increasing self-awareness are clear signs of that.

But for some people it's just all too yucky, and I can dig that. In fact the show is testing the boundaries of my own dub-con squick. I'm going to persevere because I have faith in Joss as a masterful storyteller. If it gets too yucky for me I guess I'll jump ship, but I can't see the yuck factor extending too far beyond where it already is.

I guess my theory about it is, Joss has made it a point many times to tell women's stories. Women are humans and all humans suffer. (And most of us don't kick ass and take names afterward.) So to not show their suffering would be disingenuous and false and BORING.

I agree. This show hasn't even gone nearly as far as to show the degradation and exploitation of human trafficking that goes on in the real world, and as I understand it targets women far more than men. I think it's sad that people shoot the messenger, just because it's fiction. RDM is always talking about 'holding up a mirror' to real life, showing the world as it is through the allegory of fantasy. Viewed in that context, Dollhouse is fluffy brain candy compared to the suffering it could be showing.

Aaaargh this does sound a little like rationalisation. I do find the show very, very creepy. And I don't think I'll just automatically forgive all when it comes to Saint Joss. But I think people are too quick to dismiss, y'know? Take it on face value, rather than looking closely at what is really going on.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Dude, I completely agree about shooting the messenger. The RDM thing about holding a mirror up to society is so spot on. I've been saying, "what would a show look like that omitted all female suffering?" (Or human suffering at all.) Because that's just not reality. It's not relevant and it's not interesting to me at all. And you're so right → Dollhouse is fluffy brain candy compared to the suffering it could be showing. ← I couldn't agree more.

You know I totally understand if the entire concept squicks a person. Just the idea of an organization that does this to people, is completely awful -- I agree with Paul and you, what the Dollhouse does is wrong, period -- and there are male actives so the women are not alone in that.

But the issue I suppose is that the show has a female lead -- so we're seeing it mostly from the female experience. I'm curious as to how people would be reacting to this show if it was a male lead.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

I'm curious as to how people would be reacting to this show if it was a male lead.

Yes, I'm curious about that too. I suspect that no one would watch it. I'm really not sure what that says about us as a society. :-/

Do you suppose that people really are thick enough to see making a show like this as actually endorsing a place like the Dollhouse? I thought it was making it perfectly clear that the ultimate point of it is that it's EVOL AND WRONG. I will be very, very surprised if the people in power are not brought to sticky, messy justice eventually.

Though this brings up the issue of whether the concept can be sustained beyond one season? I'm not convinced it can.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

No I don't honestly think so.

Maybe the issue is just that it's shown at all and the way it's shown. Women are "marginalized" and "objectified" and "victimized" --- all words used as a way to feminize their suffering I suppose. I do think women are treated differently in this (and other) media when it comes to that sort of thing -- not completely, not always -- but I don't necessarily believe it's always as bad as it's made out to be. And it feels that no matter what people do it's always wrong. There should be a handbook.

The message can be "this is very very very bad and wrong." But many don't care about the message -- just the means of getting there.

[woolly-socks.livejournal.com]

There should be a handbook.

LOL Could you imagine the fights over who got to write it and what it would say?? I think academic feminists would actually start putting out contracts on each other. /o\

This conversation has reinforced my resolve to give the show a chance and see where it goes. Let's just hope it doesn't get dramatically grosser and harder to actually watch?

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

Nope. The males are there. They are NOT as pretty as Helo, but they are there. *nodnod* I am very definite about it cuz i remember watching the scene in the mixed gender shower thinking how it would be if all my fav male and female characters would be using them. The fics that would ensue. Ahem. I'm just saying.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, well that could only go one way right?

Marco Polo.