this is not a wincest-free zone

[krickets]

My last post was created so I would be able to keep Marcus' story always and forever, because it was made of win, even if it wasn't exactly made of wincest. While I am not uninterested in hearing opposing viewpoints, that post does not need to be bogged down by a huge debate. So comments for the post below are now disabled Comments for this post are, however, not disabled. Feel free to debate all the do-da-day but please keep it civil.

A few things:

First, I didn't intend to offend anyone (wincesters and non-wincesters alike) by what was essentially a light-hearted and funny post. However, in my lack-of-sleep-induced-insanity, I must have had some semblence that it might, regardless of intent, because I f-locked it.

Regarding Wincest. Originally, my position on it was the same as I guess most people's are when they first hear of it: But? They're... brothers? But even then, even immediately, I found the idea of it humorous in the very least and it was definitely fun watching all the subtext on the show. Of course it doesn't hurt that there's a boatload of subtext.

(Just an FYI, the difference between canon & fandom, I think are clear. Wincest is not canon, IMO, and therefore any and all wincest discussion, is in reference to wincest as it exists in the fandom.)

I was never against wincest. I just didn't get it. But, after I'd read "wincest-if-you-squint" stories and then eventually read an excellent wincest fic, recced to me by purestvixen I quickly changed my tune. This isn't some life-altering experience. Well, not for me anyway. It's fiction. To me, it's just not that big a deal.

But I guess I haven't really talked about this with my f-list. Not for any particular reason. I've recced a fic. I may have made passing references to it. I just never felt it was worthy of addressing. Ergo, I didn't think it was that big of a deal. But here we are.

FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Dear F-list,

I read Wincest.

Sincerely,
KC

P.S. That is not all I read.


See? Was that really necessary?

Regarding the great Wincest debate, we must get one thing straight right away, wincest does not equate incest for the simple fact that wincest=fiction. I can put it to you this way:

I think that we can all agree that something like... murder for instance, is probably a worse offense, morally speaking, than incest is. Right? (Of course, every person's morals are different, blah blah blah wincestcakes. You know what I mean.)

i.e. Committing murder in the real world, would be considered a much higher crime than committing consensual incest.

But for some reason, if I were to write a story in which a character had committed, what they thought to be justifiable homocide, less people would have a problem with it, than if I were to write Wincest. In fact, if that was my main character (and even if it weren't) they would probably be looked upon favorably or even in a heroic light for their actions.

How does that work?

For some reason, sexuality crosses a kind of imaginary line with some people. For whatever reason, it leaves the world of fiction and enters reality. But the truth is that it is not reality.

The bottom line, for me, is this. You either like it or you don't like it. Neither opinion is wrong. Neither opinion is better. When you like something you seek it out. When you don't like something, you avoid it. Easy.

But what this is not, is some great moral debate. Because fiction is fiction and reality is reality and that's just... that.

Comments

[workswithwords.livejournal.com]

Amen sister! I'm so glad you posted this! I've always been a slash fan and when I started into the SPN fandom it just sort of seemed like a given for me to like Sam and Dean not just as brothers but as a pairing.

I had more to say but yeah...I'm too passive haha

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I just felt like I needed to take a stand one way or the other. The last thing I need is my flisters bitching and moaning at each other.

Cause barring all eloquence or lack-there-of and differences of opinion, you guys are my flisters for a reason.

I thought it would be better to just be diplomatic about things and address it as a whole so that you guys know my opinion about the whole deal.

Hopefully, any debate started in these comments threads will be intelligent and lacking of snappy snarky fighting.

[truman.livejournal.com]

I never cared much for slash and I'm not a fan of Supernatural (it's so scary! and I'm a wuss) so I don't know anything about Wincest but I've read the debates about the morals and ethics involved and it's just so..SRS BIZNESS.

Some people enjoy it, some don't. Let's leave eachother alone, k?

I totally agree with your views!

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Word.

[arabella-hope.livejournal.com]

I don't think I really understand the post that this stems from, but I get your point here. You definetly stated what I think of as the correct way to look at it very simply & eloquently. It's not that difficult of a line - either you go read it, or you don't.

I have to admit a smidge of guilt at not checking out your recent fic - but...I don't do Jo. The same way many people didn't want to even SEE Anna's name in Lost Fanfic...so I do apologize, but it's that same kind of avoid/take in thing.

I was the same - 'incest? What? NO!' - and now...well now anything is game.

People need to stop whining and take responsibility for their own preferences. Or...non-preferences as the case may be.

Anyways: *HUGS*

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Too bad it's not PWP cause I could search/replace her name with someone elses and trick you into reading it! Hehehe.

And, WORD on everything else.

Poor Ana-Lucia.

[gigglemonster.livejournal.com]

Word!

Wow..I couldn't agree more with everything you just said.
It seems like lately people have been making a pretty big deal about the whole thing. I don't know, but I agree, some ppl like it some people don't but it doesn't mean people need to argue and debate about it, make it a big huge deal. Just have your opinion and stay away from what you don't like. Simple as that.
Anyhoo, I just wanted to give you an amen! :D

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Amen sista!

It's a personal preference and it's not so much the "do we like it or not" because that's about as useless as arguing over ships. The idea is separating what is real and what is fiction and recognizing that one has nothing to do with the other.

[edoran.livejournal.com]

as promised, i'm still stalking you in hopes of running into part two of your dean/jo story *giggles*...


just wanted to say, I'm sorry to hear that you're having probs with comments (I don't know the whole story, so i may be totally off!)... I feel like such an outsider on all of these fandom problems (is this what fandom wank is?!)...
This is maybe because i'm only a reader which might mean i'm slightly less invested?? hm.

Anyway, this is probably none of my business. But IMO it's just like you said:
(I)you read what (I)you like, (I)you ignore what (I)you don't. simple, straighforward.
People have different tastes. even if it's not exactly my thing, you won't see me dropping by and flaming a wincest/slash/popslash/*whatever* fic or comment. I have better things to do, such as looking for fics and pairings that I do enjoy. *grins*

Anyway, it's a pain in the ass... sorry you have to deal with this crap. Having to justify yourself on your own LJ is ridiculous. *hugs*

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah, fandom wank is new to me. Sort of. I mostly try to stay out of it. Especially in the LOST fandom. With SPN I haven't really had do deal with it because I hadn't really taken a stand either way, until now.

I do like Dean/Jo and even though I read it, I don't write wincest. (Yet. Haha.) I am not all that comfortable with boxes. I like to be able to read or say or think whatever I want without being pinned into some kind of default opinion.

[edoran.livejournal.com]

I am not all that comfortable with boxes.
I agree. Categories are confining. (although convenient for communities and the like, obviously). But they're huge generalizations.

All in all, I like het and I'm not slash fan. BUT I would read a Sam/Dean angsty UST story over a Sam/Ellen PWP any day. I guess that makes me flexible. or particular. definitely not 'inside the [het vs slash] box', though.


I don't know anything about LOST fandom (or wank). Watched (and loved) the first season, but it just got a little too... weird and random for me. Too many unanswered questions, followed by more (and more) unanswered questions. The pretty boys were not enough to keep my interest piqued.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I watch LOST these days, but I don't really enjoy it. They have had some good episodes lately. But it doesn't really make up for all the other crappy once and the endless fucking list of unanswered questions. Hello cut and dry? I miss you. Not everything has to be a big fucking mystery. Fans enjoy stability.

[edoran.livejournal.com]

Fans enjoy stability.

hahaha. more than that, fans enjoy knowing what the fuck is going on. :P
I couldn't deal anymore. Remember in the season finale when Jack Kate and Sawyer were captured, and there was that huge frickin' mushroom cloud or electromagnetic explosion or whatever the hell that was that came out of nowhere?... that was where they lost me.

[edoran.livejournal.com]

oh, and i'm still "wtf?!" about the polar bear.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

I know! It's from the series premiere! Hello!

OMG!WTF?Polar Bear!

[franzeska]

I don't know the story either, but (and I say this as a huge Wincest fan) I think some of the strong reactions are partly due to the fact that fandom is so utterly overwhelmed with Wincest and its proponents. Or it seems like it is anyway--I'm a bit new to the fandom, so maybe that's a false impression. It's easy to say that people should just go read something else, but half of the recs lists I see don't have anything else. Then again, I couldn't care less whether people are sleeping with their real life siblings (assuming it's consensual), so maybe I'm not the best judge of fictional incest and its purported evils.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

You should run and go read this post: here (http://esorlehcar.livejournal.com/484431.html)

It's excellent and kind of addresses the whole, "but we're so overwhelmed with wincest" argument.

Which hey, seems pretty true if you're looking on livejournal. But there were those days (those very few days) when Wincest wasn't something I was interested in at all (oh how they flew by so fast!) and I somehow managed to avoid it and not feel all oppressed by the fandom.

I guess maybe, because I don't take it personally? And because I didn't really have a moral issue with it? (Cause um, it's fanfiction!)

To me, it was like a ship that you don't sail. I mean, stripped bare, the wincest/non-wincest debate very much resembles a ship war - with like, morals and judgement and stuff.

And yes, I totally agree with you on the consensual aspect of things. Whatever you wanna do, dude. Not my business or anyone else's business.

[thatmarcusguy.livejournal.com]

I'd just like to say I'm really REALLY sorry it was just a stupid "fic" I wrote that started this whole fight. I don't think that Wincest shippers are evil and crazy or something, I do admittedly find it gross though...but I'm not offended by it or anything like that. I just wrote that fic in my conversation with KC as a joke after hearing about some scientist testing the odds of them actually committing incest, which I thought was a funny thing to do. I'm so sorry that it started an argument.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Your fic is not stupid. Your fic is brilliant. This is not your fault. And anyway it was mostly a precautionary measure. Crisis averted. Now with this thread there's a place to discuss things intelligently. As you can see is happening.

I think you should be re-instated as KING, Marcus.

[movieguy27.livejournal.com]

SPOILERS for the sequel to Marcus' fic:

Dean wakes up in bed with his cousin... a WOMAN.

[neetha.livejournal.com]

KC, I love EVERYTHING about your journal. Where did you get all this pretty stuff? How did you change all the little icons? I'm fangirling all over this place right now... lol

[crickets.livejournal.com]

Wow. Those questions have REALLY long answers. In the meantime, I friended you and suggest you check out mintyapple (where I got my buttons & learned how to make my moods look sexy) and s2flexisquares where I learned how to customize stuff for my layout.

[crickets.livejournal.com]

OMG how sterile was that. What I meant to say was...

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I have a fangirl!

*glomp!*